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Commentaires An Anime Subculture’s Twist on Fascist-Era German Design

  • DKoK_Grenadier Colonel-Commissar
    citrusIl y a 3 mois#79042777... Except when aesthetics are an integral part of an ideology, as is the case with fascism.
    I don’t think this is necessarily the case. While I do agree that a certain style of aesthetics and fascism are intertwined, I think this is because we associate that aesthetic with fascism, rather than that aesthetic being fascist. For example, many people think that the Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k) is fascist, because it has a sense of aesthetics reminiscent of fascism. However, this is not the case, the Imperium is certainly authoritarian, but it is not fascist. I think we associate a certain sense of aesthetics with fascism because (as you said) it reminds us of order, unity, authority, strength and resilience, not because that aesthetic is essentially fascist.
    Il y a 3 mois
    marcourielRL01Il y a 3 mois#79037622We shouldn't confuse aesthetics with ideologies.

    ... Except when aesthetics are an integral part of an ideology, as is the case with fascism.

    But to be fair, fascism has good and bad aspects. For Japan, it's probably just easier to see the positives implied by fascist aesthetics (e.g. strength, resilience, unity, etc.) than the negatives (e.g. insularity, conformity, idolatry, etc.). And, honestly, depending on your alignment, you may have a different take on whether any particular aspect of fascism is good or bad.
    Il y a 3 mois
    DKoK_Grenadier Colonel-Commissar
    marcourielRL01Il y a 3 mois#79037377 ...because art is representative of the ideas of the artist, not of the historic circumstances.

    And the artist's ideas are then subject to OUR interpretation. For example, Warhammer 40k is given much of its weight and philosophy through the fans of the universe.

    For example, my favorite Imperial Guard army is the Death Korps of Krieg. There are some inconsistences with the canon regarding their portrayal, and that is fine. To me they are not fanatic zealots that WANT to die, nor they are dumb soldiers that don’t know “how to warfare” and can break (siege of Vraks). To me, they are the most elite Imperial Guard soldiers, cloned with the excuse of atoning for sins they didn’t commit, brutally trained to kill as is needed (not to die), and indoctrinated to give their lives only when the circumstances demand it, not because they are suicidal but because they know that it is necessary for the survival of mankind. In other words, I see them as a faction that fights brutally, but only because they are needed to fight that way. They don’t want to die, but they sacrifice themselves to let others live a life that they will never experience, and they do this willingly, they don’t need a commissar to keep their morale up, they need them to mediate with other people that may not want to do that sacrifice.
    And that's my interpretation of them. I don’t see them as a meme generator (well, only as a joke) of fanatism, fatalism, and (wasteful) extreme amounts of heavy artillery bombardment and sharpened shovels. But as heroes that willingly sacrifice themselves for the greater good.
    Il y a 3 mois
    marcourielRL01Il y a 3 mois#79037377So... I am trustworthy?
    Jokes aside. I'm Mexican (and I look like one, I'm very far from being "white") and I have had to deal with many things, from racism and discrimination towards us, to have to explain to my family why the indigenous people are not lazy and are not poor because they are not working hard enough. Mexicans are a fun lot; they get angry for being discriminated against but many of them do the same to the people that are worse off than them. I'm tired of explaining why capitalism is the cause of many problems and why socialism tries to solve this but because of the way it has been implemented has failed.
    I'm getting sidetracked. What I wanted to say is that all races and nations have committed atrocities towards someone at some point, there's no irreproachable historic figure, there's no such thing as a perfect human being. However, while I am in favor of teaching history as accurately as possible in schools and academic books, I'm against it trying to influence art. Art doesn't have to be historically accurate, nor it has to be "socially correct", it doesn't have to be a representation of a utopia. Art is at its very core "abstract ideas". Liking hyper cool Nazi uniforms doesn't make me agree with Nazi ideologies, nor does it make me forget the atrocities of the Nazi regime. Liking historic Templar iconography doesn't make me a catholic nor does it make me condone their "holy crusades". I think it is better to isolate those uniforms, iconography, styles, etc. from their original users and instead use them to represent OUR ideas.
    Nazi uniforms as many other military uniforms aspire to order, however, they also have a sense of elegance and superiority hardly found in other uniforms. When I see them in art I think of the wearer as an incorruptible man of honor, not a genocidal psychopath. And that’s a wonderful thing that art has and it is something we should strive to keep, not abolish. When I see a cathedral, I get feelings of sanctity, holiness, devotion and purity, not a monument to abuse, war, pederasty, etc.
    Do you get my point? I’m not saying that we should rewrite history and erase everything that is bad, I’m saying that we should separate it from our art, because art is representative of the ideas of the artist, not of the historic circumstances.


    I mean... except Iceland. I don’t think Iceland has a history of mass atrocities.

    That being said, I do get the point of art being separate from reality. Because after all, it’s art. Art can tell a lot about a person and how they create their art can show underlining ideals. That or you’re Salvador and you make funky pictures because hey, who doesn’t like funky pictures? The problem, of course, is groups of people will focus in on art and use it for their own motives.

    The swastika, for example, was a symbol divinity in Asia, and a good luck symbol in the West. Seriously. I have an old medallion from the 1920s that features the swastika. And then Hitler and his Nazis just so happened to adopt it and guess what? No one wants to use the swastika anymore cause that’s a Nazi symbol. Except in Asia, where they didn’t have to fight the Germans... they were just fighting the Japanese so you’ll find plenty of Japanese symbols aren’t particularly welcomed in some Asian countries.
    Il y a 3 mois
    DKoK_Grenadier Colonel-Commissar
    momo-sanIl y a 3 mois#79012503 ...I hope this rant makes some sort of sense.

    I don't see the hypocrisy there. It's art. We shouldn't confuse aesthetics with ideologies.
    They are not publishing a biased academic book; they are writing a fictional story in a fictional universe. They can rewrite history as they like. For example, I am all for a story that portraits Germany in 1945 fighting alongside the rest of humanity against an alien threat. I don’t care if they erase the “bad” side of history. What that story would be representing is brotherhood and camaraderie against a common enemy.
    A good example would be one of my favorite character of JoJo’s part 2, Rudol von Stroheim, he is a proud German and a bit of an a-hole, but he is also a top-tier bro. We don’t see him fighting the regime or defending Jews… in fact, quite the contrary, we see him killing Mexicans cowards and sparing the only courageous one (I’m Mexican and I have no issue with this whatsoever). We also see him dying heroically while invading Russia in Stalingrad. I don’t need the story to be historically accurate and portrait him as a racist, anti-semite and genocidal coronel. BroHeim is a good choice because we are reading a story about dumb vampires, nonsense stands and a lot of other ridiculous nonsense.

    We should ask for historical accuracy in documentaries, news, academic books, schools, etc., however, art is a separate thing, and we should treat it as such. Let us fly to different universes, I can enjoy reading about the nonstop despair and grim darkness of Warhammer 40k, then go read Zipang and their inaccurate but interesting portrait of WW2 and the author’s idealized outcome, and then just space out watching Hetalia and its funny oversimplification of complex and dark conflicts. Art doesn’t necessarily have to comply to our shitty reality, instead we should try to make our reality as nice as the most wholesome utopia humankind can think of. And we will not achieve this by policing art, this only creates the illusion that you are helping.
    Instead, why don’t we do things that actually work? People protest racism, but many don’t want to be involved in politics, or raise taxes and impulse research on functional social aid, or shop in small businesses, etc., all of this because it inconveniences them.
    We should stop policing art and instead police our reality.
    Il y a 3 mois
    As a recent first time visitor to Japan, I was quite surprised when pulling up google maps and finding swastikas litered all over the landscape. I recalled learning years ago that the symbol had been a Buddhist one (possibly signifying good fortune) which had been adopted by the Third Reich.
    while initially shocking to me, I was quickly able to deduce that these swastikas were markers for shrines throughout the city. I can only guess that this symbol represents something completely removed from its German background, as the national religion if only in numbers is Buddhist.

    Just something that came to mind and probably only part of the puzzle, but wanted to share.

    Also, great content as always Gundamuk. On a side note, since we happen to be talking about Germans, please check out the music video “sexy boy” from my favorite French band Air. I promise it will be worth your time.
    Il y a 3 mois
    So there are really people out the who are triggered by same (often satirical) nazi symbols in the anime universe? You should calm down a bit.
    Il y a 3 mois
    DKoK_Grenadier Colonel-Commissar
    ZoidsFanatic2Il y a 3 mois#79012523 What’s the old saying about the internet? If they have an anime PFP never trust them. I have a Warhammer 40K PFP, therefore I am trustworthy.
    So... I am trustworthy?
    Jokes aside. I'm Mexican (and I look like one, I'm very far from being "white") and I have had to deal with many things, from racism and discrimination towards us, to have to explain to my family why the indigenous people are not lazy and are not poor because they are not working hard enough. Mexicans are a fun lot; they get angry for being discriminated against but many of them do the same to the people that are worse off than them. I'm tired of explaining why capitalism is the cause of many problems and why socialism tries to solve this but because of the way it has been implemented has failed.
    I'm getting sidetracked. What I wanted to say is that all races and nations have committed atrocities towards someone at some point, there's no irreproachable historic figure, there's no such thing as a perfect human being. However, while I am in favor of teaching history as accurately as possible in schools and academic books, I'm against it trying to influence art. Art doesn't have to be historically accurate, nor it has to be "socially correct", it doesn't have to be a representation of a utopia. Art is at its very core "abstract ideas". Liking hyper cool Nazi uniforms doesn't make me agree with Nazi ideologies, nor does it make me forget the atrocities of the Nazi regime. Liking historic Templar iconography doesn't make me a catholic nor does it make me condone their "holy crusades". I think it is better to isolate those uniforms, iconography, styles, etc. from their original users and instead use them to represent OUR ideas.
    Nazi uniforms as many other military uniforms aspire to order, however, they also have a sense of elegance and superiority hardly found in other uniforms. When I see them in art I think of the wearer as an incorruptible man of honor, not a genocidal psychopath. And that’s a wonderful thing that art has and it is something we should strive to keep, not abolish. When I see a cathedral, I get feelings of sanctity, holiness, devotion and purity, not a monument to abuse, war, pederasty, etc.
    Do you get my point? I’m not saying that we should rewrite history and erase everything that is bad, I’m saying that we should separate it from our art, because art is representative of the ideas of the artist, not of the historic circumstances.
    Il y a 3 mois
    gundamukIl y a 3 mois#79030630I think the comment you referenced was by Zoids rather than me, however, I can tell you that having attended Japanese public jr high a few decades ago WW2 got one week (in 8th grade) with most focus on the A-bomb. All public school jr high kids still go to Hiroshima on a mandatory school trip as well so the end of the war for Japan is what most Japanese focus on.

    Your point on the internet is interesting. I don't know how WW2 is presented in school now or what new learning tools most public schools have adopted. However, having been back for work in Japan in subsequent years my sense is that there hasn't been much change.


    oops soorry, I have no clue how you got into the quote instead of the other person. But thanks for your input! Historiography (aka the study of the study of history) is one of my favourite things so its always interesting to hear how other countries understand and teach their own history
    Il y a 3 mois
    gundamuk Lewd, but never uncouth...
    rococoroseIl y a 3 mois#79013743Snip I think the comment you referenced was by Zoids rather than me, however, I can tell you that having attended Japanese public jr high a few decades ago WW2 got one week (in 8th grade) with most focus on the A-bomb. All public school jr high kids still go to Hiroshima on a mandatory school trip as well so the end of the war for Japan is what most Japanese focus on.

    Your point on the internet is interesting. I don't know how WW2 is presented in school now or what new learning tools most public schools have adopted. However, having been back for work in Japan in subsequent years my sense is that there hasn't been much change.
    Il y a 3 mois
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